Curse

Master Ketsu · Aug 18, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Ill be honest, as long as its not proposition 1 or something similar, Then it will be fine. People will get used to the other change proposals despite initial complaints.

But if you turn the title into something easily grindable, the title will be dead. Wont be a matter of hardcore players who dont like change not willing to try the new system out...it will be a matter of "ho-hum just another title".

moko · Aug 18, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

^i have to agree.

still, NOT changing the system (i STILL don't get why you are THAT keen on definately changing it..) and just changing RA in different ways would be an A LOT better solution that would make everyone happy.

look at it like HA...people complained about killcount (leavers), killcount was removed...instead of adding a change to the fame system that gives 1 fame per kill so people would love killcount (proposal 1).

basically, please stop being stubborn, trash your ideas and listen to what the actual TA community (not RA farming scrubs) wants.

LuckyGiant · Aug 18, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

^i have to agree.

still, NOT changing the system (i STILL don't get why you are THAT keen on definately changing it..) and just changing RA in different ways would be an A LOT better solution that would make everyone happy.

basically, please stop being stubborn, trash your ideas and listen to what the actual TA community (not RA farming scrubs) wants.

Thats the startling thing. Chuck in an anti leaver method. Cleans out RA of all the leavers, people will probably get further in RA then since the elitest syncer groups with near perfect makeup are gone and don't knock out 10 teams on their way to glad. Everyone happy.

(The influence on syncers probably adds up if you have just 5 groups synced at a time they knock out 50 genuine groups per 45min or so, which probably has a very large impact on the gameplay of those that play RA. Remove these, everyones better off.)

How about you do the process in two stages: implement the anti leaver system. A week later if not happy with the result implement some title changes rather than doing both at once.

red orc · Aug 18, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Lets talk about bots. If glad is farmble then bots will apear. Now you can argue that 3Vs4 will result in the bot loosing. But if bots are popular then you will have many 3+bot Vs 3+bot. And guess what ? one of the bot gets a point.
Now add an anti leaver to RA and you cannot even leave while having a bot. What will you do ?
RA will become worse than AB.

Another point for thinking in doing it too easy.

Deep Sea Diving · Aug 19, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

You said it yourself Andrew, there are more RA’er than TA’er. Maybe, just maybe, that’s the real problem. Why are there more RA’ers? The answer is that there isn’t much incentive to TA. Maybe there is a way to make TA more appealing, along with making a change to the Gladiator Title system to include a more casual crowd.

It’s pretty obvious that ArenaNet is going to make a change to the RA/TA title system, it is just yet to be seen what that change will be. It should also be obvious to you that if you implement any of the aforementioned proposed changes the current TA base will probably be dissatisfied. So, maybe you could appease the casual crowd in RA and compromise with the TA base?

How? I think the answer is simple, and it is also one that has been voiced by TA’ers for a long time. The Answer: a TA ladder system. You’ve given a ladder system to Hero Battles, and even the PvE Challenge Missions (Only God knows why), so why not TA. Yes, it wouldn’t be simple, but I’m sure you have the basic code already worked, and it would just take some modification.

What would a TA ladder do? For one, giving TA’ers something that they’ve been wanting would probably make them more flexible as to the eminent changes to the Gladiator Title system. It would also draw more people to TA. So, the end result, in theory, would be a homerun for you and the rest of ArenaNet: The TA community grows even after over 2 years, and you’d be satisfying your “oh so precious” PvE/Casual player base. This might also be the first time you would have the opportunity to score with BOTH the PvP and PvE/Casual player bases…Something ArenaNet as a whole has failed miserably to do to this point, but hey, it’s not too late to change that.

You would still need to change the Gladiator Title system. I think that the third of the proposed options would be the closest thing to the best that you could do, but it still needs some tweaks. This is my proposed change: make the point scaling system (per 5 wins) ONLY apply to TA, and make every fifth win in RA worth 1 Gladiator Point.

By increasing the TA population, and making a few intelligent decisions, you would not have to worry (if you did) as much about “pleasing one and shafting the other.” Do I RA or TA? Nope. I’m an elitist GvGer. From my standpoint, ArenaNet has made the right marketing decisions, but at the expense of the PvP community. There have been those times when Izzy was able to put through a change that contradicted that strategy, changing Soul Reaping being one of the biggest, but those were few and very far between. What you’re trying to do here goes deeper than just the mutilation of the Gladiator Title, a title that most PvP’ers would argue is a better indicator of player skill than EITHER the Hero Title or even in some cases the Champion Title. This change goes right to the core of the PvE/Casual v. PvP debate.

Just remember, Andrew, that before you tell me that you can’t do a TA ladder, just remember that ArenaNet has giving PvE a Competitive Missions a ladder, and if you’re not careful about this decision you may very well lose the remaining TA player base.

My idea’s are pretty broad and in no way would make for a “quick fix,” but I believe that they would help Guildwars.

I’ll be eagerly awaiting your reply Andrew.

lacasner · Aug 19, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I still fail to see what is wrong with the title in the first place and why it needs tweaking. That is not to be misunderstood as where you should obtain it though, i think the 10 win to point is perfectly valid and rewards good, consistent play.

But still, make a new title for RA. Best solution imo.

Div · Aug 19, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

I still fail to see what is wrong with the title in the first place and why it needs tweaking. That is not to be misunderstood as where you should obtain it though, i think the 10 win to point is perfectly valid and rewards good, consistent play.

But still, make a new title for RA. Best solution imo.

GWO is one of the main reasons why Anet is deciding to change this title. 99% of their PvE population is unable to get glad points (for good reasons, mending wammo, fc flare mesmer). If they beat tyria with those builds, why can't they get a glad point? It MUST be because the system is flawed.

Therefore, they complain that glad points are unfair, people leave if they see a mending wammo, people leave if there are no monks, and want Anet to change the system. Given that Anet still has no response to leavers and no response to how to let bad players get gladiator points, the only way is to greatly loosen the requirements so that bad players playing bad builds still have a chance to get those points (provided the rest of his team is good enough or the opposing team is worse: i.e. fc flare mesmer+healing breeze monk vs firestorm warrior+necro with power shot).

Why is proposal one so popular? As stated before, it's one of the few ways those bad players can get gladiator points. That bad population also outnumbers the serious TA community that truly care about the gladiator title track at least 1000:1. Even if you add in other PvP'ers (like me) that don't want to see the title change to a grindfest, we are still in the minority. Hopefully Anet will listen to the minority that knows what we're talking about, and for the first time, not consider marketing when dealing with this situation.

Because seriously, gladiator is a very prestigious title to some, and very cherished by TAers. It's not meant as something bad players can get.

If gladiator is really changed to one point a win, I'm making a post on GWO forums proposing champion points should be for any 1000 rating+ guilds, since it's too elitist of a title and normal PvE'ers have no chance of getting it. I mean, the champion title tracked is screwed up enough by those double ritspike weekends, so why not just let all PvE'ers get champ 4 like eE and SoG?

Master Ketsu · Aug 19, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Anet really does need to realize that the majority should be ignored in cases like proposition one. Because they are simply wanting it for their title collection. The pve scrubs who want it dont care about the title. THey dont care about the skill behind it. They dont care about the TA community. They just want another grindable title to add to their list of titles.

Please Anet, for the sake of 4v4, Ignore the pve'rs. You wont lose any money ignoring them over something like this, because in reality they dont actually care. Just make some other random title, and they will be happy. Dont ruin PvP.

I challenge anyone out their to find one Rank6+/glad3+ player out their that doesnt agree that proposition one is poor.

The problem with making the glad title something that any old player can get, is the current PvP community. Currently gladiator title's reflect a players individual pvp skill ( knowing how to time skills well, knowing how to react to certain situations, interrupting ) and hero rank reflects Pvp team skill ( listening, protecting monks when they need to be protected, spiking well, and just generally shows you know how to follow a team strategy. ) And champion ( mixture of the two )

If the glad title is n00bified just so "casual players" can get it, sure they might be happy...for a little while....but then the glad title will deteriorate. It will no longer be seen as a testament of individual skill, it will be just another grind title and once again we ( When I say we, I mean pvp community ) will only have Hero rank to go by again.

urania · Aug 19, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Izzy calls TA community elitist and says that its wrong to be awarded a glad point only after 10 wins (being too difficult and all etc...) and that there have to be rewards even for casual and less exp players. He also claims that in either the cases the usual TA community would be rewarded too since they would gain points even faster. That'd be more or less the sum up of my argument with him today.

Aera · Aug 19, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

GWO is one of the main reasons why Anet is deciding to change this title. 99% of their PvE population is unable to get glad points (for good reasons, mending wammo, fc flare mesmer). If they beat tyria with those builds, why can't they get a glad point? It MUST be because the system is flawed.

QFT. Obviously, quantity > quality

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Therefore, they complain that glad points are unfair, people leave if they see a mending wammo, people leave if there are no monks, and want Anet to change the system. Given that Anet still has no response to leavers and no response to how to let bad players get gladiator points, the only way is to greatly loosen the requirements so that bad players playing bad builds still have a chance to get those points (provided the rest of his team is good enough or the opposing team is worse: i.e. fc flare mesmer+healing breeze monk vs firestorm warrior+necro with power shot).

QFT. Anet ignores the ones who really care.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If gladiator is really changed to one point a win, I'm making a post on GWO forums proposing champion points should be for any 1000 rating+ guilds, since it's too elitist of a title and normal PvE'ers have no chance of getting it. I mean, the champion title tracked is screwed up enough by those double ritspike weekends, so why not just let all PvE'ers get champ 4 like eE and SoG?

Yeah...someone's already done that here on Guru: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10188210

...sigh

Cass · Aug 19, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Did you miss the part where leavers are punished? No more leave leave leave AH MONK gogo affair :/
Ty for trying, try again.
[Insert Coin]

I laughed at that coin thing. Is that supposed to impress me? Try again indeed.

I don't believe that introducing a punishment for leavers is good as you will get griefers, suiciders etc. So perhaps leave leave leave is replaced by suicide suicide suicide then. Still not fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Well Cass you have proven to me that you have no idea what your talking about. Mabye you should go to TA sometime and look around, Not only do more than 10 people TA, but there are more than 10 guilds who TA as a a team on a daily basis.

A massive 40 people, yes that really puts my 10 to shame. /not

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

I shall assume from this quote CAss, as well as you other arrogant spitefull post, that you neither have a Glad title nor any friends around. Wanting to have the Glad title cheapened out of Spite is not a valid reason. Take Black Sephirs advice and insert another coin and try again.

And you'd be wrong on both accounts.

I repeat that I am not concerned with the value of the title either positive or negative. I do think that #1 is not bad for the title. It will be more fun to play, and higher tiers (which are converted current titles too) will retain prestige. You get 1 fame per win in HA too, by the way.

moko · Aug 19, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

You get 1 fame per win in HA too, by the way.

are you an underworld IWAY farmer?

erk · Aug 19, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

We have been gathering feedback from the forums and Ryan's talk page and the designers are working on tweaks to the proposals to hopefully address many of your concerns. As soon as they work out all the numbers I will let you guys know what they are looking at now. They are very carefully monitoring these discussions and are definitely keeping TA players in mind while trying to find a system that works well for both the hard core and the casual players.

Thanks Andrew, I just hope the designers consider that the Gladiator title should still reflect player skill not how good a bot script they can come up with.

RA is about the only place left in GW where you can get into a good battle without having to organize a party so it's pretty unique. The quitters are trying to force it into an organized party which is the main spoiler, if the devs can fix that and the sync exploits, then the there will be more people scoring Glad points as a result of not having to compete with intentionally harder teams.

It becomes a moot point if it's 5 or 10 consecutive wins for a Glad., if the devs can level the playing field from quitter selected, and sync teams.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Aug 19, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

GWO is one of the main reasons why Anet is deciding to change this title. 99% of their PvE population is unable to get glad points (for good reasons, mending wammo, fc flare mesmer). If they beat tyria with those builds, why can't they get a glad point? It MUST be because the system is flawed.

Therefore, they complain that glad points are unfair, people leave if they see a mending wammo, people leave if there are no monks, and want Anet to change the system. Given that Anet still has no response to leavers and no response to how to let bad players get gladiator points, the only way is to greatly loosen the requirements so that bad players playing bad builds still have a chance to get those points (provided the rest of his team is good enough or the opposing team is worse: i.e. fc flare mesmer+healing breeze monk vs firestorm warrior+necro with power shot).

Why is proposal one so popular? As stated before, it's one of the few ways those bad players can get gladiator points. That bad population also outnumbers the serious TA community that truly care about the gladiator title track at least 1000:1. Even if you add in other PvP'ers (like me) that don't want to see the title change to a grindfest, we are still in the minority. Hopefully Anet will listen to the minority that knows what we're talking about, and for the first time, not consider marketing when dealing with this situation.

Because seriously, gladiator is a very prestigious title to some, and very cherished by TAers. It's not meant as something bad players can get.

took the words right out of my mouth

holy for prez.

Master Ketsu · Aug 20, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Ive done some thinking. Perhaps the only reason the casual gamers are whining so much is because they cant make any advancement, and the lack of advancement towards the title makes them discouraged. Perhaps if they toned it down so that the title was grindable, however far easier to obtain then proposition 1 if you actually used skill to obtain it, maybe everyone would be happy ?

Proposition #5: Scale it the same way as HA. But even less forgiving.

Win #1 = 1 point
Win #2 = 1 point
Win #3 = 1 point
Win #4 = 2 points
Win #5 = 2 points
Win #6 = 2 points
Win #7 = 4 points
Win #8 = 4 points
Win #9 = 5 points
Win #10 = 5 points + 3 bonus points
Win #11-19 = 5 points
Win #20 = 5 + 4 bonus points
Win #30 = + 5 Bonus
Win #40, 50, 60, 70 ect. + 6bonus

*Lose 2 points for losing before 5 consecutive wins*
NOTE: Leaving or DCing counts as a loss.

Multiply current player points by: 55

Multiply each rank requirement by: 40

Something like this might actually work. This way casual gamers will still have some way to get the title...after tons of tons of farming, but much like HOH the advantage clearly goes to those who win consecutively.

notrich · Aug 20, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Proposal Infinity - Subtract points for losses

+1 for a win
+1 for every 5 wins

-1 for every loss

option 1: +1 Flawless
option 2: +X (X = the streak of the team you just beat)
option 3: team /resign spike after last win and before next match = +1 for each flawless win during streak

LuckyGiant · Aug 20, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by notrich

Proposal Infinity - Subtract points for losses

+1 for a win
+1 for every 5 wins

-1 for every loss

option 1: +1 Flawless
option 2: +X (X = the streak of the team you just beat)
option 3: team /resign spike after last win and before next match = +1 for each flawless win during streak

Yeah I like your system, then all the pve'rs that screamed for the glad title change can attain some new titles:

Welcome to PvP (1) -25 glads
Titles for Everyone (2) -50 glads
I suck at PvP (3) -100 glads
Lol TA (4) -168 glads
Rebirth is good you nub (5) -280 glads
....
I use Mending (12) -10,000 glads

Ok on a more serious note, something that hasnt been mentioned. Andrew can't we give RA 2 titles?

Keep the glad title in both RA and TA (with the same 10 consec win requirement) and then give people who play RA another title. Say the "fighter" title where u get 1 fight point for either turning up or per win or whatever. Chuck in your anti leaver methods into RA to stop glad farming. And everyones happy.
Gladiator keeps its current glory.
Casual RAers get their easy to attain pvp title.

red orc · Aug 20, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Now youre just too bright to work in a software company.
Another title !
How did Anet didn't think about it ?

Na, lets ruin the gladiator title.

Ruben · Aug 20, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If gladiator is really changed to one point a win, I'm making a post on GWO forums proposing champion points should be for any 1000 rating+ guilds, since it's too elitist of a title and normal PvE'ers have no chance of getting it. I mean, the champion title tracked is screwed up enough by those double ritspike weekends, so why not just let all PvE'ers get champ 4 like eE and SoG?

QUOTED FOR EMPHASIS

Master Ketsu · Aug 20, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyGiant

Yeah I like your system, then all the pve'rs that screamed for the glad title change can attain some new titles:

I use Mending (12) -10,000 glads

Best

Title

Evarrr.